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Warhammer - RvR and PvP

Posted September 24th, 2008 by Isobelle

I’ve had a chance to dive into some player versus player conflict in Warhammer, and have got to say that they seem to have a clear vision of what they wanted to do with regards to this. Whether or not that vision is fully realized or not is up for debate, though. It reminds me of my brief stint at the Academy of Art in San Francisco. My father is an illustrator, and I went to art school for two years before I decided it wasn’t my thing, and then went into IT for a while. At the academy, there were hundreds of kids complaining that they didn’t get any hands on lessons with Photoshop, and instead were ‘wasting all their time in Figure Drawing classes, drawing people’ or ‘dragging their heels in Analysis of Form classes, drawing bowls of fruit’. The point is that companies like Pixar don’t care if you can apply a lens flare filter; they’re more impressed if you can hand draw a walk cycle animation that looks believable. Fancy effects don’t mean much if the underlying principles are flawed. In that respect, Warhammer has pulled it off with their PvP. The soul is present. Now they need to patch it up and work on frame rates and the finer polish.

Scenarios – a.k.a Battlegrounds.

For each tier of gameplay, you move to a new zone. Tier one is level 1-10, two is 11-20, three 21-30, four 31-40. Each tier also has its respective conflict: the Dwarves vs. Greenskins, Dark Elves vs. Something Else, and Fruit Salad vs. Ice Cream. I dunno, I play a Greenskin, and have kinda stuck to my zone. As you run around in your zone, questing or whatever, you can queue up for a scenario. You don’t need to go to a battle master, just click an icon by your minimap and queue up for that zone’s queue (as solo or a group). For example, the Greenskin’s tier one scenario is a Battlefield type ‘capture the three points and hold them’ thing called Mount Ekhorn. The Dark Elf tier one scenario is different. They all are based on the actual zone they take place in, so the Greenskins get a properly ‘Greenskin vs. Dwarf-y map’. If you wish to queue for the Fruit Salad vs. Ice Cream map, you need to go to that zone to queue, or party with someone in that zone and have them join the queue. When it pops, you click to enter it, and when it’s over you’re back wherever you accepted the invite from.

There are various modes of play, from the above mentioned ‘cap and hold points’, to ‘pick up the item and run around with it, earning points for your team as long as you hold it’, to ‘grab this item, and run it to three various locations on the map within 30 seconds, at which point it will reset back to its starting location’. Keeping in mind, that in addition to doing the objectives, all the while people are just killing each other randomly. It’s fast paced, and frantic, and the variety of each map is a huge refreshing breeze to OMFG ARATHI BASIN AGAIN KILL ME PLZ. The fact that you eventually out-level tier one and are forced to move on to tier two seems to make it fresh, but eventually everyone will end up at tier four and stay there, so I dunno how fresh those will remain to be. People in general chat complain loudly about being steamrolled by premades, but…. Uhh… that’s kinda the point of this game… to coordinate with your guild and kick everyone’s ass. Unguilded people don’t seem to ‘get’ that, and I’m sure the game is probably 3000% less fun running around alone.

I accepted the first guild invite I got way back at level two (“Bloody Hands” on Anlec), and it surprisingly turned out to be a pretty awesome guild. Guilds earn XP, and actually level up as you get new members, or do quests together. You can even impose a guild tax (ours is 2%) and every time anyone loots 62 copper off a dead mob, one copper goes into the guild vault. It’s a much better system than begging for (or demanding) donations after a raid, and it’s small enough that it doesn’t matter, but adds up the more members you have. Guilds can also designate Bannersmen that can carry the guild standard into battle and drop it on the ground. The buffs given by the standard range from extra XP given per kill to extra rep gained during quests, and others. Our guild standard currently gives 15% extra influence (or infamy) during Public Quests, and 9% extra XP per kill. We have a guy named White that’s our carrier, and questing with White is the way to go. You can designate five people in your guild as carriers, and if White were to die during a Keep siege taking, the enemy could destroy our banner and we’d be out 2g to buy another one. Banner placement becomes an interesting tactic, as picking it up and moving it isn’t instant, it’s like a 10 second channel.

RvR – Taking Keeps, etc.

I partook in my first (attempted) taking of a keep last night and hot damn… it’s kinda crazy. Again, the soul of the implementation is there. I had a blast, and working together with the guild really builds ties. The framerates, though, suffered horrendously at points, and I can only imagine it’s going to get worse as the struggles get larger. We had about 10 guildies, and a bunch of pugs from the zone filling out a warband (raid), and we tried to take Mandred’s Hold. And failed. Miserably.

Again, organization prevails, as the guild defending the Keep had little trouble fending off what was basically a PUG attack group. The Keep itself is full of NPCs, and a Hero status ‘Keep Lord’. It’s basically like the final push in Alterac Valley. The enemy is trying to screw up your chances of killing the Boss NPC, but there are just way more options available. There are certain spots marked on the ground where various forms of artillery or whatever can be installed. You can’t just throw a cannon on the ground wherever you want, which sucks, but again kind of makes sense because otherwise rich guilds would just buy 800 cannons and it would be impossible for a ‘normal’ guild to ever hold a Keep. But you can install them on these launch pad things, and use things ranging from cannons to battering rams, or vats of hot oil that can be poured on people storming the gate. All these items cost money, and can be purchased from a quartermaster in your town closest to the keep (using guild tax money, hooray).I can see people saying "USE MONEY?! Why would I waste cash on something that's going to be recaptured when I log out?" Because you earn Renown, and renown is a separate leveling system that actually earns you separate stat enhancing talents (think: +HP or +crit%, not new moves, just stat boosts, or new tactics).I'm currently Level 17, Renown Rank 10. I have a few +STR boosting renown points.

Using an item like the cannon gives you a different HUD with a crosshair, and various actions like rolling the mouse wheel will affect how far it shoots, to how hard it hits, or whatever. The Battering Ram I used last night (and failed to take a screenshot of) had four ‘seats’ where people could use it, and once it had people using it they each got a golf swing timer kind of thing on their screen. You’d click to begin the swing, click at max power, and again at the bottom of the swing. Then it would show what each person swung (player 1 hit for 67% of full power, you hit for 32%, the third guy hit 98%), then average out their swings to be the final calculation. Of course you can just whack the front door with your sword to break it down, but using a ram is obviously going to cut that time down to a fraction. Skilled and coordinated rammers will be even faster. All of this is happening while hot oil is being poured down from the ramparts, and people are free to just run up and attack your toon as well while you’re doing all this stuff. It’s crazy.

Once finally inside the place, you still have to contend with getting up the stairs (player collision works), then finally engaging the boss and his body guards, all while suffering harassment from enemy players. I imagine taking a keep that’s completely undefended by players (with just NPC defenders) would be something unto itself, but with enemies present it becomes a real challenge. If those enemies are all coordinated, in vent, and familiar with their ‘keep siege’ roles, it could get hairy. I can’t even imagine what taking a city is going to be like.

There are a few kooky bugs that need to be ironed out (engineer turrets ignore LoS and shoot through walls), and in general framerates go to hell once you get inside the place. This is frustrating for melee, as I’m chasing someone trying to put my snare down, and I’m either too far, too close, or the previously mentioned animation bugs are just rearing their heads. Often, the animation will go off regardless of whether or not the move landed, the only way to really know is to see if the target is actually walking slower or to check debuffs. With the black orc’s gated combat system (have to do move one, before I can do move two, before I can actually do a good damaging move three), this becomes frustrating. Maybe a ‘standing back and nuking’ caster would have a better time of it.

I also find myself just using my tanking gear during PvP, which unto itself is pretty sweet. I’ve been building up two sets of gear, tank and DPS, but actual prot tanks can play vital roles in PvP. I think I’ve mentioned before how they’ve implemented various tanking ideas, but it bears mentioning again.

In addition to tanking’s main stats (toughness and wounds) being applicable to PvP, taunt WORKS. It won’t force anyone to face you, but if they don’t, it’s only doing you a favor. My damage is increased against taunted targets by 30% for 15 seconds, or until they whack me in the face three times. By continuing to ignore me, and go after my healer, they’re only making it harder on themselves. Body collision also works, and in the BGs especially (where frame rates aren’t as bad), there’s very few things as satisfying as physically placing my big black orc ass in between someone trying to go after my pocket healer. I ran with a shaman guildie last night named Cheerup, and the combination of me getting between someone trying to hit him, while they ignored my taunt, was brutal. He’d just start to kite them, and I’d step in between, and they’d stop moving. I could see their little legs going, but they weren’t getting anywhere near Cheer. Strafing from side to side to stay in front of them added a huge element to PvP, and allowed Cheer to get out and heal himself up a bit. It sounds so minor, but it just works.

Anyway. With some work on the engine, and various bugfixes, this is going to be a whole new ballgame. I’m still pretty far from endgame (level 17 of 40 now), but with a good guild this is going to be huge. My guild is big enough that we will be able to pull this kind of stuff off, last night was just my first go at doing any of it. We’ve apparently taken a keep before, it just didn’t come together last night. Participating in RvR or world PvP earns individuals renown points, which is a separate leveling system unto itself. Read this LINK for the full breakdown, I’m not going to retype what’s already there.

This is my second full on endorsement of the game. I still haven’t reached the endgame, but if it keeps up this pace, I can see it replacing WoW for a good chunk of people, and that’s a pretty bold statement to make. I mostly just need to see what the city sacking adds up to be like, and if it’s worth bothering to sack a city, or what.

Stay tuned...

 

.

 
 
Someone Unimportant's picture
Someone Unimportant said:
September 24th, 2008
Outside of glaring UI faults for healers / casters and the animation process of course, the pvp is so beyond Planetside, WoW, anything like that sort because of the collision detection. Keep defending may just sound boring since you could just wait 15 minutes and recapture it, but it's not. Infact, in the first week or so, it's probably the BEST thing I've done so far. It's almost a scene right out of a movie where you're up top doing anything that has range on it down on the guys hitting the door to when the door buckles and you race downstairs to stop them from getting inside. I work with an all dwarven guild. The one time the door broke down, we flooded with 13 Ironbreakers (tanks) to the door to stop them from getting it. Think 300, but half the height. After pushing them, literally, out the door, half ran and the other half died trying to jump over us. Hilarious. And leveling in PvP is probably the best way to welcome people to keep playing without dare saying the word "grind." Get bored with open groups, guild pvp, the lovely PQs (open quests where stages happen, mostly racing against the other side) then fine, do the Scenerios, it's all exp anyways!
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Isobelle's picture
Isobelle said:
September 24th, 2008

ah! that reminds me.. i meant to work it into the article, but TWINKING IS DEAD. everything you do in this game earns you XP, and that is awesome. there are still those who queue for the 'last tier' battleground at max level, but hell... let them...! they'll earn enough XP to ding after a few runs, and you can go about your business.

there's no way to effectively force yourself to never level. each BG i run around level 15 or so nets me anywhere from 2.5 to 8k XP depending on how long it lasted, and wether or not i had heals. in wow, running BGs seems like a waste of time, but in Warhammer it's actually productive.

Renown ends up boosting your stats as well, so if you aren't running BGs, you're doing it wrong.

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Someone Unimportant's picture
Someone Unimportant said:
September 24th, 2008
Making PvP give you experience is a double benefit - I only just got back into WoW, and made the last few levels (quit last year at 66). I am not looking forward to the PvE grind to 80, doing it PvP would be oh so sweet.
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Someone Unimportant's picture
Someone Unimportant said:
September 24th, 2008
Another nice thing is the renown gear which is offered from special vendors at various cities. If you keep running the battelgroun--err, scenarios, you can buy decent green loot for renown points.
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Someone Unimportant's picture
Someone Unimportant said:
September 24th, 2008
Well I'm off to buy a copy based in part on your endorsement. I was going to wait for Wrath and then sample a heavily polished Warhammer then after my bad experience with Conan. But I've just broken 15,000g in WoW now (and I still have [The 2 Ring] to sell). I really don't need anymore gold and if I wrangle another Aether ray I seriously think I might puke. So off I go. Destruction FTW and so forth. P.S. If it turns out to be sucking then I hate you.
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mven's picture
mven said:
September 24th, 2008

I have to agree with Iso on the collision detection making such an incredible difference.  Playing my swordmaster hanging out in front of a keep I can stand in front of a massive charge of people and if the first person or two get stuck when they bump into me it makes like a massive traffic jam.  When enough of them get piled up I pop gusting wind and throw half of them back away from me.  With a couple more sword masters lined up and a handful of healers behind us we can literally stop a massive zerg in its tracks.

Another fun thing with CD is that your own teammates help/hinder you.  If I see some stupid goblin midget healer fuck and I start beating on him he will immediately try to book ass and in a big enough crowd will invariably get stuck on some fatass orc at which point I beat him to death.  It gets really messy when there are a ton of people and the lag starts kicking in.

The biggest problem I see for this game thus far is the massive imbalance between the sides.  It is crazy on the server I am playing on (Hochland) and IMO it makes for some hilarious PvP.  I see other people crying and making for servers with higher order populations though as time goes on and people find themselves being unable to do much in PvP without a serious force.  That is not even mentioning the massive amount of crying that will be going on once the "Open" nature of the server becomes more heavily exploited.  Just last night I was riding to Saphery through Avelorn when I get nailed by a sorc which knocks me off my horse.  I procede to start beating the fuck out of the sorc as 15 of his guildies come charging up the road and rape me til I am a crumpled pile of elf bleeding from the anoos in the middle of the road.  This was at 5 am central.  When you have guilds blocking off whole sections of content I think the crying will really start.

Aside from that most of my gripes with this game are minor annoyances.  Ranged mobs ALWAYS bug out.  You will start hitting one and backing up to pull him away from his buddies, or end up with a few ranged mobs in a massive pull or something, and invariably you will end up with a bunch of them that look like they are shooting at you in melee range.  When you try to hit them it says the target is out of range.  You basically have to move back far enough so that the mob actually has to take a step before they pop back to where they are supposed to be.  You also occasionally have mobs that change status from killable to non-killable to non-targetable as part of scripted quests that bug out.  These are lovely because some of them can't be targetted or hit but will continue to beat down your healer just cuz.  Another favorite of mine is the lovely fact that every single time I log out of the game it moves my two chat boxes up my screen about 3-4 inches.  I love fixing this oh yes.  The cooldowns and flaky UI are fairly irritating as well, it really sucks hitting a button that looks like it's good to go only to find that it was a UI bug.  I have the same problem as Iso as my abilities chain together as well based on "balance" (exactly the same as black orc gimmick just different names).  As I constantly loop through abilities to do my damage when one flakes out it totally fucks up my groove.  The cooldown is about 10 million times better than it was in beta but still not perfect.

I think the crafting system in this game might be okay, excluding the fact that some of the gathering professions are harder than the actual crafting.  I haven't been able to mess with this yet as I fucked myself switching from scavenging to salvaging after I was too high to go back to the lowbie areas to farm gear for salvaging.  I am hoping the bazaar prices will be decent enough that I can just buy up lowbie trash to get through this soon.  *shrug*

So yeah I would also like to state yet again that my SM is a fucking BEAST.  La de da.

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Someone Unimportant's picture
Someone Unimportant said:
September 24th, 2008
Warhammer has a lot going for it. I'm playing it every day. Although I will be shooting off for WoW come patch 3.0 unless Mythic fixes the combat. While the high-level view of WAR PvP is great, the actuall low-level combat between player vs. player, or even player vs. environment is lacking. A game dedicated to PvP has to have a fluid, responsive combat system, and that is what is missing from WAR. I'd say around 25% of the time I cast an instant spell while moving the spell doesn't go off, but the animation does. For example "fire cage"(think frost nova in wow, just with fire) I've cast this many times in PvP to have nothing happen, and my cooldown was used. I didn't see any disrupts on the screen and there were many enemy combatants so I didn't miss them all. If Mythic can smooth the combat, and fix the animation so that people 10 feet from me don't appear to have 5 fps then I will actually consider playing this game over WoW.
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Krimspins's picture
Krimspins said:
September 25th, 2008

Alright Iso you talked me into it...bastard.

Going to pick this game up after work today.  I think it's earned about a 2 month stint or so from your reviews.

A couple questions though:

-What is the best support/healer chaos side?  I was eyeballing a zealot but I have no background to go off of here.

-Any stupidly OP classes you've noticed thus far?

-Do smaller classes (goblin shammy) benefit from their lack of stature in PVP?

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Bladee's picture
Bladee said:
September 25th, 2008

-What is the best support/healer chaos side?  I was eyeballing a zealot but I have no background to go off of here.

Zealot is a decent healer in WAR, however you can choose DoK or Shaman aswell, however it is all about different healing techniques. DoK must DPS in order to be able to heal, while shaman can just stand and spam heal.

-Any stupidly OP classes you've noticed thus far?

It depends.. BW is really strong if you let him DPS you, and shaman is a good surviver in PvP, just like druid in WoW.

-Do smaller classes (goblin shammy) benefit from their lack of stature in PVP?

If you mean the size, it does not metter, if you mean how many are playing the class.. Shammies are quite popular now, they aint overcrowded, but we ait lacking them either.

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Isobelle's picture
Isobelle said:
September 26th, 2008

tab tagetting is kind of random it sems, so it might benefit you marginally to have a hard to click on sized unit... but then again, once Order sees a shaman healing, they all jump on your ass and rape you, so... ;)

Iron Breakers seem to be the most often complained about class in my guild's chat, but they're order, and it sounds like you've got your mind made up for destruction.

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Krimspins's picture
Krimspins said:
September 26th, 2008

So I went ahead and picked up warhammer and a 60 day card.  I didn't realize they gave you 30 to start so I suppose I've got a nice long while to play this thing.  I'm really not complaining at this point though.  For a game in its infancy, while it goes without saying that it lacks polish, the content is definitly there!  I'm loving the public questing concept.  The stock UI blows WoW's out of the water with built in quest helper and whatnot.

The only complaints thus far are the difficulty to binding actions to keys (not that WoW's is any better but there are UI plugs for that).  The tab targetting is pretty ugly.  And, this is probably my fault, but I don't know how to keep my camera stationary when I mouse it around.  When I walk it swings back behind me and that is annoying for kite healing on my zealot.  The linear-ness of the world seems to keep the epic feel down a bit.  Then again some of the battles build it up pretty well!

All in all for a game in its infancy it has a ton of promise. 8.5/10 as it stands right now

Zealot is 8/8 on Praag, names Krimsin. 

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Bladee's picture
Bladee said:
September 26th, 2008
Krimspins, if you go to options, the camera setings, and uncheck the box saying Smart follow, it will stop moving back to your char.
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Krimspins's picture
Krimspins said:
September 26th, 2008
Thanks bladee,  I thought I tried that but I was messing w/ my UI a ton at that point so maybe I forgot to hit Apply or something like that.
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